Re: Christ, Mick, and Women

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Posted by Dandelion on April 14, 1999 at 01:14:20:

In Reply to: Christ, Mick, and Women posted by The Storm on April 10, 1999 at 16:02:22:

: Wow, you go away for a day and then all sorts of interesting things start to explode on the board. Which is why I moved my comments up here.

But now they are down here, no?

I've been meaning to comment on these threads, but have been too busy.

: But more than anything else, B2B is anti-Tao.
Good god!

:"Tao" of course means "Way" in Chinese, and the spirit of Taoism (which ended up infusing Zen Buddhism) is that if you go against the Way of the Cosmos--do things that are unnatural--everything in the universe will get thrown out of sync and screwy things will start happening.

Do anything unnatural, oh, sometime around September 1997?

: So the Stones try to go against the nature of the Stones by making a mechanized, computerized, anti-Stones record like B2B, and you get sales plummeting, Mick getting laryngitis repeatedly,
Have you ever had laryngitis? It is _very_ difficult to get rid of.

: Keith breaking his ribs,

Ribs. Very biblical. And tasty.

:and finally the Mick and Jerry divorce.

Have you ever seen that VH1 wedding special she hosted?

: People who understand Taoism could have easily predicted these consequences the moment they heard ASMB and the other anti-Stones, seek-hip-shamelessly sounds of B2B. They've gone off track, upset the delicate cosmological balances of nature, and fucked up royally. Jesus probably didn't mind B2B much, and the same with God and the other Bible guys, because they taught man to manipulate nature and harness it to his "benefit." That means technology, like computers and synthesizes. Jesus, God, and the Bible guys were probably smiling at the sounds of B2B because it represents humanity's un-Taoist, un-Zenist assault on nature.

You make me actually like Christianity now.

: Now, on the issue of Mick's misogyny: I remember asking in the fall of '97 on this (actually, the other) board why women still liked the Stones even though the lyrics were misogynous. It was a completely different cast of women characters in those days,

I think that would be Chrissie Shrimpton.

:but the answer basically boiled down to this: "When women hear 'Under My Thumb' or some such song, we just put ourselves into Mick's role and imagine the lyric as '...the guy who once had me down.'" In other words, they simply role-reverse and use Mick's expression of his occasional hostility to women as a way to relieve their own occasional hostility to men.

I forgot who (Camille Paglia perhaps?) pointed out that the Rolling Stones are not misogynistic, because the genders of the characters in their songs can easily be switched.

Did you ever check out that book I mentioned back then, the one with a long article about Mick by a feminist writer who actually "got it" for a change? I forgot the title, I'll try to find it.

:Of course, no one is hostile to members of the opposite sex at all times,

How do you think bisexuality plays into this?

:and Mick also writes some incredibly beautiful love ballads that should be completely in touch with the times:

"The times" is not the point. The lyrics and attitudes in question have long been misunderstood. They dealt with social issues head on back then, songs very blatant in an appearance of misogyny or social class for example, brought up issues that were normally swept under the rug. Stupid Girl can be seen as a far more pro feminist song than 99.9% of pop music at that time.

: ("Already Over Me," "Always Suffering," "Out of Tears," "Baby Break It Down," "Evening Gown"). You should give him credit for these. But in general, people of both sexes feel hostility and anger to the other frequently enough that someone of Mick's androgyny can appeal to both. Only reactionary femi-nazis and people who haven't thought it through thoroughly could fail to recognize this. I'll grant you, though, Mariajag, that Mick's behavior during this divorce has been appalling.

What exactly did he do besides bring up the rather well known fact that the "ceremony to shut Jerry up" was not a legal marriage? It appeared Jerry was the one dragging it through the press.

I think the general public's reaction was rather telling, and cliche.

:But I remember when I suggested this a couple of months ago, there were howls of protest on this board, including protests from women who identified Jerry Hall as a "horseface" and completely identified with Mick and took his side in the divorce case, perhaps imagining themselves as more appropriate partners.
Cockroach is a woman? Heh heh heh.

: So it's a complicated world, and whether you're in Houston or in love, you've got to get out every now and again to see it from a different perspective.

Hmmm, what about you and B2B?

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