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Posted by Hot Stuff ( on November 30, 2000 at 15:36:18:

In Reply to: Re: Keith wiped out & overdubbed.... posted by Sir Stonesalot on November 30, 2000 at 10:30:53:

: What you fail to realize here Hotty, is that Keith has only one equal in the Stones. Mick. Charlie gets his respect, but in matters of song construction, Mick would be the only one he might defer to. The Stones are not a team. They are a 2 headed dictatorship. It's been that way since Aftermath. Those who write the songs have the power.

@@@ Mick & Keith often rely on others in song construction, ie: Ian Stewart, Nicky Hopkins, Jimmy Miller. Ronnie helped Keith develop the riff for IORR, but never got credit. Just because it's always credited to Mick & Keith don't mean that's how it always is. Mick & Keith just grabbed all the power.

: Keith has own set of faults; he's human. Keith was fucked up on drugs for longer than Brian ever was; Keith in the 70s relied on Mick to do his guitar parts and would make the others wait HOURS just for him to wake up & get to the studio.

: And your point?

@@@ The point is, don't assume that the reason they deleted Brian's contribution was because he fucked it up as usual due to his drug use. It's hypocritical to put down Brian because he used drugs yet put Keith up on a pedestal for the same reason. Brian had the strength & common sense to quit; for Keith to quit he had to drain his fucked up blood and replace it with someone else's.

: Yes, the song turned out well, but for all we know, it may have been similar or even better with Brian.

: It's pretty hard to do better than perfect my dear. And in the condition Brian was in at the time, I highly doubt that he was capable of being better than perfect.

@@@ Brian had already quit doing drugs once he moved to Cotchford farm months before he died; THAT is the condition he was in. He just did not WANT to go to the studio and part of the reason for that is KEITH. BRIAN is the one who FIRST came up with that riff we all love in HTW.

: Brian is dead.


: He has no one to blame for his decline in the Stones but himself. He was the one who let Andrew, and Mick, and Keith walk all over him.

@@@Brian was always looking for the good in people; maybe that was his downfall in the end. But that's no excuse for how they treated him. Did you know that when Brian first held auditions, Mick & Keith showed up. Mick sang; he was in. But the only reason Keith got in is because Mick told Brian it's a package deal; can't take him without Keith. So Keith was in. Alot of people in the audience didn't like Keith because he was into Chuck Berry, not a blues brother; Brian was into the blues but stood by them even with all the criticism. Brian even helped Mick learn how to stay in time when singing.

:IMO, Brian NEEDED Mick/Keith because he couldn't write songs as good they did.

@@@In the beginning it was Mick & Keith who idolized Brian. Brian wanted to be in a band; he never liked singing, so why would he go solo?

: Let me ask you this, if Brian was being so trod upon, why did he stick around so long?

@@@Because of the $$$, the fame, the glory, the women. Let's be realistic. Brian's no fool. But there came a time when the pleasure was not worth it. In the last few months of his life, he wanted to start his own band & do the kind of music he wanted to do. He didn't like the way the Stones were turning into just a money-making machine, rarely seeing each other. But Brian hated confrontation, he avoided it. So instead of telling them he wanted to quit, he just refused to go to the studio; passive aggressive.

:Brian was a great musician, but he wasn't a songwriter. Don't trust Mick & Keith's judgement on that? Bill and Charlie have both gone on record stating that as well. As a matter of fact, I believe Bill's quote was "Bloody awful".

@@@Mick & Keith were "bloody awful" when it came to songwriting when they first started out too. That's why they did covers & had to be locked up until they came up with something good. Look at Keith's solo stuff; that's not what I would call "good songwriting". The Stones are the sum of all their parts; they all need each other to succeed.

OK so what's the big deal? Brian didn't get some songwriting credit? Neither did Bill, or Mick Taylor, or Woody.

@@@True, but at least they got credit sometimes, and I would hope Keith doesn't routinely delete & overdubb their stuff. They SHOULD be giving them credit. I have to wonder why they did that.

That's the way Mick and Keith play. That's the way they always have played. Fair, no, but it's their band.

@@@It was Brian's band until they took control of it.

They can do whatever thay want. And you and I have no right to tell them how to run it.

@@@ If it wasn't for the fans, the Stones would be nothing. And as a fan, I would have like to have heard what Brian came up with on that song. And if there IS any of Brian's tapes left after all his belongings were burnt and the house was stripped after his death, I'd like to hear it. I'd like to see Mick, Keith, Charlie, and Ron function as a TEAM, not a dictatorship. And I'd like to see all the players get the respect they deserve. Whether the Stones care at this point I seriously doubt it. It's easy to overlook what went on behind the scenes when you listen to HTW getting drunk on a Thursday night at the local seedy bar. I got the urge for gin now!!

: I think they have been pretty successful doing things their way.

@@@ Yes, they have, and at some point the money-making machine took on a life of its own, for good or worse. But at least Brian will live on through the music.

Later, SS!!!

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